Have not done a reader question in awhile, so here it goes:

I am currently beginning a committed 2 full months into prepping for the LSAT. I originally signed up for the Blueprint LSAT full course, but was did not mesh with its classroom style. I prefer to study on my own. i have a low GPA 2.35 but went through hell (divorce, tragedy, etc.) while in school. I am 32 years ols and a single dad. I am absolutely committed to preparing and dead to the world for the next two months. i am purchasing the Powerscore Bibles to add to my study. What advice, if any can you elaborate on in preparing and what are the prospects, assuming I do well on the LSAT, of any top schools offering me admission?

Click below to see my answer...

 (More)

Powered by Wufoo

Do any of the new students have a question about law school in general? How about those of you planning on law school next year?

Fill out the form above and submit you question. We will do the best we can to answer here at the Pre-Law Blog. See some of our previous questions here.

Readers actually send the pre-law blog this question a lot, which backs up the theory that the pre-law blog's readership mainly consists of criminals.

Here's the latest:

• I have had an interest in going to Law School and have been encouraged by my professors to do so. However, I have a criminal record. Last March(2007) I was arrested and plead guilty to posession of Marijuana with intent to distribute and in April of 2003 I was arrested for a DUI. Will this absolutely bar me from going to Law School?

The pre-law blog has touched on this subject before: "RQ: Getting into Law School (and Accepted to the Bar) with a Criminal Record". So instead of writing a new post, we just updated that one a bit. Please follow that link and take a look.

 (More)

One of the Pre-Law Blog's female readers sent us some tips of what the ladies should wear as law school starts in response to our past posts on what to wear in law school.

Her tips on what female law students should wear in law school can be found below...

 (More)

Ann Levine of Lawschool expert posts her thoughts on the Pre-Law Blog's previous post on the LSAT.

We haven't talked about the LSAT in awhile. A reader gives us this comment:

• I recently downloaded a practice LSAT exam. Though I have learned a great deal about the law in Paralegal School, I saw that it had absolutely no relevance when it come to the LSAT. What is the best way to prepare for the LSAT?

My response below...

 (More)

Some of you with much more knowledge of outlining software disagreed with my previous post on the value of outlining software for law students. I got a great response from a fellow law student blogger (Preaching to the Perverted) and a Chicago-Kent student, himself.

I defer to him on the value of this outlining software because, again, I am too cheap to think about buying this type of software for myself and I didn't know any students who used software for notetaking other than a couple of people who used OneNote. So I really do claim ignorance as an excuse.

His response is excellent and includes a link to a great blog post that reviews the outlining software options available for law students:

MORE BELOW....

 (More)

UPDATED: JULY 14, 2007...See RESPONSE to this post from a fellow law student blogger.

This reader question is about outlining/notetaking software for law students.

• Is there a legal computer software outline that would help me outline class notes, cases and other info? Some legal bookstores, I noticed, insist you use a certain study aid along with their outlining system and I didn't want that.

See my answer below...

 (More)

Unfortunately, I had to disable comments on this site because of the inordinate amount of porn spam comments it was getting. This really hurts the whole discussion aspect that this blog could have, but I still love to hear feedback from readers through the "Do you have a question..." form on the right.

Here is a (very long) comment from a reader that really illustrates some of the points I try to make on this blog (though, obviously, not her original intent). I interspersed the comment with my responses for your reading ease.

Just FYI, your posting about high law firm salaries has some inaccuracies.

Uh-oh, lay it on me. See more below...

 (More)

This isn't a specific question, but I've received several reader submitted questions in the past basically asking what the social life in law school is or can be like. Read my response below...

 (More)

Once again we are witnessing a sort of bidding war between large firms in New York to see who will give incoming new associates the largest salaries. Simpson Tacher & Bartlett recently raised the starting salary of their newly hired associates to $160,000. As soon as this was announced several other firms followed suit. This brings me to a reader submitted question I've been meaning to get to:

• Law School is a big investment. What's the likelihood that I will be able to find a high-paying position after graduation?

When one firm raises its associates' starting pay, like clockwork, several others follow and, again like clockwork, the media picks up on it. So we see many articles like this: here, here, here, here. I think this gives some people thinking about law school an unrealistic idea of starting salaries.

WHO PAYS THESE LARGE SALARIES?
First of all, only the large firms pay salaries in the vicinity of $100k (probably those that employ at least, say 250 attorneys). Medium/small firms jobs, solo practitioners looking for help, public sector/government jobs, or other public interest jobs will not pay close to the large numbers you've seen thrown around recently ($150,000+). You'll find salary information on a lot of those big firms here.

THE PROCESS
A large majority of people who graduate with these high paying jobs actually got their foot in the door at a firm by participating in on campus interviewing (OCI) during their second year fall semester. During OCI, firms come to the school and interview 2l's for what is known as a summer associate job.

Students who are hired as summer associates work in the summer between 2nd and 3rd year of law school and get paid at basically the same rate as a full-time associate. It's virtually a trial run from what I understand. If you don't screw up the summer associate job, you're probably going to be kept on as an full-time associate after your third year.

And yes, I know what you're saying...since law firms that pay the big bucks mostly interview and hire during 2l fall semester, how can they consider 2nd year and 3rd year grades? They don't for summer associates. That's why first year grades are crucial. I realize this doesn't make much sense. Welcome to law school.

HOW HARD IS IT TO GET THAT KIND OF SALARY?
Secondly, it's very tough to land a large firm job. Because of the cost of law school, many students are looking to pay off their loans as quickly as possible. So many, many students are shooting for the big firm jobs during OCI or otherwise.

A person generally must have some sort of balance of the following in order to land a job that pays that sort of cash: 1) attend a highly regarded school, 2) have a high class rank, 3) have connections.

As an example, my school is in the top 70 law schols schools according to the US News and World Report. There are some big firms that don't even bother coming to my school. Very few out of town firms.

But of the ones that do interview on my campus, most will not interview students outside of the top 15%, 10%, or even 5% in terms of class rank. Sometimes law review is a requirement. And even if you meet certain criteria, you are not gauranteed to nail an interview and get a high paying job.

So you can imagine that the lower ranked the school, the more restrictive interview requirements firms will have for that school and the less likely certain big firms are to even interview at that school.

Now if you attend, say, a top 20 school, your chances become much better. Big firms from all over are more likely to interview up on your campus and much less likely to rely on strict interview standards.

So this is what it comes down to if you want one of the big paying jobs: Do well (grade wise) at a highly reputable school, do extremely well at somewhat reputable school, or have a parent/relativ/etc. whom you know will be able to get you one of these jobs.

IN CONCLUSION
I wrote this post partly because I read this person's post here. Now, I do not endorse his views and I think they are too negative in many respects (I posted my response in the comments of his post). It seems to me that this person had a good life as it was, but saw these sort of $140,000+ starting salary jobs, left that job in order to pursue law school, attended the best law school that would take him, but couldn't put full effort into law school. And now he, by his own admission, is very bitter about the whole law school process.

He didn't realize just how tough and competitive jobs in law school are. And as someone thinking about entering law school, you can't fall into the same traps he did. With so much uncertainty about where you will end up grade-wise when matched up against many people who are of basically equal intelligence as you, it's not very smart to enter into most law schools with the idea that you will be one of the few who end up with a 100k salary immediately.

If you feel like your future depends on landing a high paying job right after graduation and you don't have a chance of acceptance at an elite law school, you have to know there is a huge risk that you won't get a big firm, high-paying job. It's even riskier when you consider the cost of most law schools.

It's not easy to land such a job straight out of law school. But that doesn't mean that there are not other opportunities after graduation. It also does not mean that you will never have a shot at a high paying job down the road. For those who don't get the big firm job, it's more like the real working world: start out with a lower salary and work your way up.

Updated 1/29/2007 from an older post:

This submitted question is for those students who are currently in high school. If you're past high school and would like to add something from your experiences, feel free to add your advice in the comments. Otherwise, you can probably skip this one:

• Hi, my whole life I have deeply desired to become a lawyer... I understand that this is a long way away for me because I am in high school but I want to start preparing now. I currently have a 3.3 GPA and want to go to a good college. After that, I want to get into a good law school. My question is, what are good colleges that will help me get into a good law school?

I think it's great that you are thinking about law school as early as high school. Here is a general overview and some suggestions for those high schoolers with the goal of getting into law school:

DURING HIGH SCHOOL
Your high school GPA isn't going to be that important to getting into law school. But it will be important to getting into a good undergraduate college which makes it easier to get into a good law school. So keep your GPA as high as you can throughout high school.

Possibly just as, and in some cases more, important than grades during high school is ACT or SAT scores. Do not take these tests lightly. Take classes, get tutors, and do what you need to score high on your college admissions tests. The idea is to get into a reputable undergrad university after you graduate.

CHOICE OF UNDERGRAD SCHOOL
But where you go to get your undergrad degree is probably not as important as you may think. If you get into an elite undergrad school and excel, that is definitely a plus and will help you get into law school. But it is not as if people from good state schools are shut out from law schools. And failure at a great undergraduate school would hurt your chances of getting into law school. Just try to get into the most reputable school that you can that is both within your means and fits any other needs that you have.

DURING UNDERGRADUATE SCHOOL
Once you are in college this is where things start to really count for law school. It's real simple; you need to keep your GPA high from the start. Be prepared for the challenges of college and don't start out in the hole with bad grades during your first semester or two of undergraduate school. The less reputable your school/less challenging your major, the higher you need to keep your GPA.

PICKING AN UNDERGRADUATE MAJOR
Major in what you like. Law schools have no prerequisites other than a degree from an accredited undergrad institution. I would suggest against majoring in pre-law, justice, legal studies, etc. Law schools like diverse students and may prefer people with different undergrad backgrounds. I will note this little study, but take that for what it is worth. The bottom line, major in what you are interested in: something that you could see yourself doing in case law school does not work out for you.

THE LSAT
Towards the end of your undergrad career you'll need to take the LSAT. The LSAT is THE most important test you will take in terms of getting into law school. Do what you have to do in order to score as high as you can on the LSAT. Again, tutors, classes, studying well in advance.

A high LSAT and a high undergrad GPA will open up numerous doors for you in terms of getting into top law schools, no matter where you went in undergrad. But even a high LSAT and a mediocre GPA still might get you into some really good schools. The LSAT is that important to admission into law school.

IMPORTANT RESOURCES
If you're interested about what LSAT/Undergrad GPA will give you a chance to get into what schools, check out the Official LSAC Guide to ABA Accredited Schools. Pay attention to the bottom 25% and higher 25% numbers. You need to have a gpa and lsat score at least within these two numbers, if not higher, to have a chance at a given school.

To get an idea of where a law school stands compared to its peers check out the US News and World Report Law School Rankings (also see tier 3 and tier 4 for complete listing). Note that the US News Rankings are not without controversy. Unfortunately though, the rankings are the best quickhand method for gauging where a school is perceived to stand amongst its peers.

WHAT ABOUT NOW?
Something you can do right now is try to make contacts. If you can, do some volunteer work for people working in the realm of law you wish to work. The experience will be good for you, but most importantly it only takes one good contact to get a great job down the road. Working around lawyers increases your chances of making good contacts. Additionally, you'll better undstand the legal world which will help you make the ultimate decision to pursue a job in this field.

Again, I think it's great that you no you want to go to law school right now. That puts you ahead of probably 95% of your future law school classmates. And having that goal should keep you on track academically throughout your high school and undergrad school career.


Good luck!

----
*I am a law student. That means I don't have all the answers. I may be lacking knowledge in certain areas, namely the real world practice of law. But I have done a lot of research into the law school process as a whole and I am currently living through law school. I am also surrounded by a lot of smart and experienced people with unique insight into the law school world who either work at CALI or with whom CALI has close relationships. I hope that you seek others' opinions and insights in addition to mine in order to make an informed decision.

Someone recently sent me this question:

• I graduated with a BA degree in political science and i took the LSAT with a 147 score, which knocks me out of any ABA approved schools. I am thinking of applying to a non-ABA accredited school but am afraid that employers will not hire me after i graduate because i went to a non-ABA law school. What is your opinion on going to a non-ABA law school?? Do you think employers will hire non-ABA students?? Any information is appreciated. Thank you.

First of all, I'm not 100% convinced that a 147 completely shuts you out of any ABA accredited schools. There are a few at which you may have an outside shot. Chances are even better if you have a good academic background or if you are a member of an underrepresented minority group. Here is a link of the schools that have the lowest bottom quartile scores. It's worth a shot at some of those where you have a similar score.

Second, I know that for people in certain situations, non-ABA's have advantages (lower cost, more relaxed admissions, possibly less time-consuming) making them very appealing. A non-ABA be the right choice for these people and maybe you.

With that said, you must keep in mind that in most states one must attend an ABA-accredited school in order to sit for the bar (ie, you cannot legally practice law in that state). California is the big exception it has several non-ABA options that are accredited by the Californian board allowing graduates from these schools to take the California bar..

As far as employer's opinions of non-ABA it is tough for me to gauge because Illinois, my home state, does not have any non-ABA's. I assume employers do not look at non-ABA's as favorably as most ABA schools. You probably are not going to have a shot at a high paying big law firm job any time soon if you go to a non-ABA. That said, I can't see how if an employer would hire a student from a very low-tier ABA school it would refuse to hire a non-ABA alum. Either way, it's probably an uphill battle in terms of competing for jobs if you attend a non-ABA and the fact that you attended a non-ABA may shut you out of some options.

Also note that some ABA schools will accept non-ABA transfers. But one should never assume enough success first year at a lessor school to make transferring to a better school easy.

But my advice to you: Take the LSAT again! And again if necessary. This time work harder, take a class, or even hire a tutor if necessary if within your means. Many schools will look at the highest of the three scores. Get your highest score possible and then reconsider your options.

Links:

List of Non-ABA accredited schools

More info on Non-ABA's

Info on accreditation

An important part of the law school application that a law school applicant must understand, especially if the applicant is a minority, is how being an minority (URM) affects the application. Along those lines, here is a submitted question I received not too long ago:

• I graduated from (very good public school in California) with a 3.72 in philosophy. I recently took the lsat and I am very disappointed with my score. I got a 158, I was hoping to get at least in the 160’s. I am considering taking it again, but I really don’t want to. I have done a lot of community service and extracurricular activities. I am also a member of an underrepresented ethnic group. Will I even have a shot at a top 10 school with this LSAT score? The school that I really want to go to is Columbia.

By the way, thanks for including your actual numbers. This makes it much easier for me to assess thie situation. For future readers with questions, know that including your LSAT and GPA numbers will make it more likely that I will answer because that lets me better understand where you are.

How being a URM affects an applicant:
First off, a little background. A landmark US Supreme Court decision in 2004 basically affirmed law schools are allowed to favor an applicant because of race or ethnicity. This is not affirmative action or a quota system. It is simply bumping a person's chances of acceptance up because that person would add diversity to the academic mix. The basic logic behind this is that a schools' diversity is a compelling interest that justifies using race or ethnicity in the admissions process.

It varies from school to school and most won't say exactly how, but it's no secret that your chances of acceptance if you are a member of an underrepresented minority is much better than if not . Just make sure in your application you bring to the forefront how being a minority gives you a diverse perspective and show how your status has affected you as a person. That said, being a minority doesn't write a person a ticket to any law school he/she wishes to attend.

Your chances:
I'm no expert, but in your shoes this is how I would approach your situation. I'm going to be using Columbia as an example since you mentioned it, but you can go through this process with similarly situated schools to get a better idea.

The first thing to do is find Columbia's data page from the Official Guide to ABA-Approved Law Schools. A comparison of your GPA to that of last year's acceptances at Columbia shows that you are right near the top 25th percentile. And your GPA is from a pretty reputable/recognizable school. You're certainly not going to get rejected because of your GPA. In fact, your past scholarly success will surely help your chances.

For further guidance, some schools give more detailed applicant statistics at the bottom of the "Law School Description" sheet. Columbia, like a lot of top schools, chooses not to disclose applicant data in that kind of detail though (here's an example of what some schools do provide though).

Next compare the LSAT scores. As you can see, your 158 LSAT score does not surpass the lower 25 percentile for Columbia's accepted students last year. This is not good news for most applicants, but could being a URM put you over the edge?

Use Law School Numbers:
To break this down a little further, I would use one of my favorite websites for law school applicants: lawschoolnumbers.com. You can really play around with their search function and get a basic idea of how things shakeout for Columbia. You can even use the search tool so that only other URM applicants are included in the search.

Just remember two things about LSN: 1) these are self-reported numbers so they undoubtedly contain mistakes and accounts that have not been updated and 2) as you narrow down searches, the sample sizes are going to be too small and may not be a very accurate representation.

Based on what I know, with your URM status and great undergrad GPA, receiving an LSAT score that is average for Columbia would likely get you into Columbia 7 or 8 times out of 10. Doing a search on lawschoolnumbers of last year's minority Columbia applicants who scored between a 168 and 171 (50% of all Columbia acceptances LSAT scores fell into this category) helps confirm this by showing a pretty good majority of candidates fitting this criteria reporting themselves as accepted to Columbia (as opposed to rejected or waitlisted, you can assume the pending ones just didn't update their accounts).

Now a lawschoolnumbers search for last year's Columbia minority applicants with an LSAT score between 155 and 163, similar to yours, doesn't garner a lot of results so be weary of the small sample size problem. But most report either a rejection or a waitlist (can probably assume that most waitlist candidates eventually choose another school or were never accepted at Columbia). And the ones reporting being accepted in this group were generally 160 or better with a sparkling GPA.

My Advice:
I would have guessed your 158 LSAT score puts you at a less than 50% chance of acceptance at Columbia. The lawschoolnumbers search helps confirm this guess and maybe even paints a bleaker picture for your chances than I expected.

If you want a halfway decent shot at a school as reputable as Columbia, you're going to have to do better than a 158. You can take your shot with what you scored, but I wouldn't recommend it. I certainly wouldn't want to go through the LSAT twice, but you have to do what you have to do.

Not to be overly dramatic, but the LSAT is an extremely important test and can pretty much indirectly determine what career opportunities you might have or might not have. Do you really want to spend your life thinking "I could have done well on the LSAT and gotten into Columbia had I studied for and taken the LSAT again."

Based on my limited knowledge, I think you need to shoot for 165 or higher. Take a course or a tutor if you have to in order to get it.

Links:
This a description of how law schools use diversity on applications decisions as viewed from a person who is paid to help minority applicants through the application process. Website looks out of date but it still seems like a good description.

LSAC's (administrator of the LSAT) "Minority Perspectives" homepage with links to FAQ's for minority applicants and some relevant articles.

A pretty good "Guide to The Law School Application Process for People of Color." Pretty long but most of the length comes from an addendum with numerous sample resumes, personal statements, and letters of rec.

Blog written by a group of black professors called blackprof. It tackles a lot of relevant issues for minorities. Wish they posted more often though!

----
*I am a law student. That means I don't have all the answers. I may be lacking knowledge in certain areas, namely the real world practice of law. But I have done a lot of research into the law school process as a whole and I am currently living through law school. I am also surrounded by a lot of smart and experienced people with unique insight into the law school world who either work at CALI or with whom CALI have close relationships. I hope that you seek others' opinions and insights in addition to mine in order to make an informed decision.

I realize that a lot of the readership of this blog comes from hoodlums, hooligans, or general ne'erdowells. So I found this week's reader question especially appropriate:

• Can i get into any law school if i have a criminal record? Does it depend on how bad the crime was or am i just ineligible? If so, then is there anything that i can do to help myself and get into law school?

Answer below...

 (More)

Another great question submitted by one of our readers.

• I'm in a similar situation as the chemical engineering student from Northwestern, but my university isn't nearly as prestigious, nor is my major as difficult (Political Science with an emphasis in Public Relations). Due to an incredibly bad sophomore year, I have a low gpa . . . but I do not want to give up on my dream of going to law school . . . . Another option that may be feasible is to apply to a lower ranked (but still accredited ) law school, do well during the first year, and then transfer to a higher ranked school the following year. Should I just forget that I once dreamed of attending Harvard(completely out of the question at this point) and Duke? I still have time to improve my GPA and prepare for the LSAT, as I have two majors, my graduation date (2007) has been delayed by a year, but I would like to give myself peace of mind regarding my situation. Thanks.

There are several good questions in here, but let me address the most general question that is probably applicable to many law student hopefuls who cannot get into a big name school...

Should I apply to a less reputable school with the plan of transferring out after first year?
Unfortunately it is a very poor strategy to go to one law school and counting on transferring to another between your first and second years (generally the only point at which a law student can transfer).

Look at it this way, to transfer to a big time school you have to prove that you are far and away a better student than the students at your current lower reputation school. To transfer upward, you probably need to be in lower than top 25% and the highest reputation law schools to which you wish to transfer will require you be in the very, very top of your class.

Most of the students at the school you attend your first year are going to be, assumedly, of similar intelligence as you. Afterall, your LSAT's will likely be within the same range. And obviously, almost all law students are going to try to achieve elite status academically during their first year; whether their motivation is transfering, scoring a biglaw job, law review, etc.

So in your first year you'll have all of these students of similar intelligence vying for a top spot in the class. Because of this you just don't know whether you will be at the top of your class at the lower ranked schooll, which will be the major factor to ability to transfer upward.

In general to anyone thinking about the transfer up idea, I highly advise against taking this strategy. If you go to a certain law school, you need to be comfortable with the idea of finishing your JD at that school. After the first semester if your grades and rank are high, then you can think about transferring upward.

Should I rule out going to law school?
I don't think you should rule out law school until you know what your capabilities are on the LSAT. I can't stress enough that the law school you attend is highly dependant on LSAT.

Your major or undergrad school alone is not a big enough strike against you. But if your GPA is as low as you lead on, there is a chance that it will hurt, maybe completely eliminate, your chances at some elite schools. The LSAT, though, can mask that low GPA and still get you into some pretty good schools.

For now you should concentrate on getting that LSAT score as high as possible to make up for your GPA. In addition keep improving the GPA to show an upward trend. Take plenty of practice tests and have an idea of your potential score on the LSAT.

As mentioned in the previous post, map out scenarios using information provided by lawschoolnumbers.com and LSAC's Official Guide to ABA Law Schools. Come to a conclusion on what you think it would take, LSAT-wise, to get into your target schools and go from there. Estimating what schools you have a chance of getting into becomes easier when you have done plenty of practice LSAT exams and know where your score could fall.

At that point you will have the ability to make an informed decision about law school and, if need be, the ability to rule out attending law school altogether if your target schools are completely out of reach. But as of right now, you just can't do that. It might cost you some time and effort to prepare for the LSAT, but I think you have to keep up the dream for now.

One more note on a low GPA
Also, you need to make sure that your grades are continuing to rise. But I have to be honest, if you have trouble keeping up grades in undergrad with a less than difficult major at a less than competitive undergrad school to the point where you feel you are underperforming, you may need to seriously think about whether you are up for law school.

Succeeding in law school is much more effort and requires better study habits than undergrad. Unless you have a legitimate reason for your poor performance (and if you do, note it on your personal statements to law schools), you will have to be willing to change the way you do things in terms of school work.

I'm not assuming anything about the reader, but for people out there who know they have the ability but don't apply themselves in undergrad, just changing as soon as you step into the halls of law school might be harder than you think. The same temptations and distractions that might have kept you from doing well in the past in undergrad also exist in law school.

----
*I am a law student. That means I don't have all the answers. I may be lacking knowledge in certain areas, namely the real world practice of law. But I have done a lot of research into the law school process as a whole and I am currently living through law school. I am also surrounded by a lot of smart and experienced people with unique insight into the law school world who either work at CALI or with whom CALI has close relationships. I hope that you seek others' opinions and insights in addition to mine in order to make an informed decision.

With the number of complex questions I've been getting for the reader submitted questions, I thought I'd take on a truly simple one this week:

• How many years does it take to finish law school?

Generally it takes a law student three years to finish a full-time law school program and four years to finish a part-time evening program. Do not forget that you must complete a degree from a four year university before that.

That was easy.
But that simple question has left me so unfulfilled for the reader submitted question this week. So I'll delve a little deeper into the basics of law school curriculum at an extremely basic level for those of you just starting to research law school.

This is going to be very, very basic stuff for a lot of you so feel free to skip this posting.

Law school curriculum
Generally the core courses taken in the first year are all required. A student cannot choose his or her classes during the first year. In fact most of the time first year law students have a schedule that they have no control over whatsoever. A wholly set schedule.

Some law schools break a certain course topic into two semester and some schools will push a required basic course or two into your second year. Here are the core classes at most law:

Torts:
Basically you study civil harms done by one person to another. The person who commits a tort (tortfeasor...yeah, that's what it's called) may have to pay or fix the harmed person in some way, but the tortfeasor won't go to jail under tort law.

Another basic difference between a tort and crime, it's easier to convict a person of a tort (need proof beyond a preponderance of the evidence) than a crime (need proof beyond a reasonable doubt). This is why OJ Simpson still had to pay a lot of money but didn't have to go to jail for the murder of his wife.

Contracts:
The study of agreements made between people.

Criminal Law:
This is probably the side of law you are used to seeing depicted (pretty inaccurately) on TV and movies; that is, things people do that can get them sent to jail. Study of issues involving the law that surrounds crimes like homicide and rape.

Property:
Legal issues relating to personal and real property.

Constitutional Law:
Study of issues that fall within the scope of our Constitution. Lots of monumental Supreme Court decisions.

Civil Procedure:
A study of the rules that govern the processes leading up to a civil trial, during a civil trial, and after a civil trial. All the technical stuff regarding how civil actions work. For example, how the decision is made that certain courts can hear certain suits (jurisdiction).

Legal Writing/Research:
You'll learn how to do research by book and by using Westlaw or Lexis (online tools for legal research). And you'll learn to write like a lawyer.

2nd and 3rd year of law schoolThe second and third year of law schools is basically a time when you can choose to take whatever classes you want, though there are still may be certain requirements like an ethics course. Just depends on the school. There are different techniques for choosing classes (discussed here).

Most people will agree that the first year is the toughest year. After that law school becomes easier and less stressful.

In Conclusion
If you're interested in learning more substance of the first year courses CALI offers a subscription plan for pre-law students that gives access to our first year CALI lessons through learnthelaw.org.

I realize I answered more than what the reader asked. But I think the contents are something of interest to many who will find this post in a search because the original question is a very basic one that a person just starting to research law school might ask. Because of that I tried to keep the descriptions in very simple terms.

----
*I am a law student. That means I don't have all the answers. I may be lacking knowledge in certain areas, namely the real world practice of law. But I have done a lot of research into the law school process as a whole and I am currently living through law school. I am also surrounded by a lot of smart and experienced people with unique insight into the law school world who either work at CALI or with whom CALI has close relationships. I hope that you seek others' opinions and insights in addition to mine in order to make an informed decision.

Today's reader question:

• I am trying to decide whether I should apply straight to law school or take a year off. I am Chemical Engineering major @ Northwestern U. Due to my hard major, my gpa is not that attractive for freshmen and sophomore year. But very strong my junior year. My LSAT score is very high. Should I wait to apply after my senior year or risk it? I would like to go to Top 20-50 schools.

To be clear for our other readers, our reader with the question would need to apply to law schools right now during his senior year (fall '06) in order to have a good chance at attending law school next fall (fall '07). But doing so means the law schools will initially only see his undergrad grades up to his junior year.

He is considering taking a year off of school before attending law school, if I understand this correctly, and counting on his senior year grades making a difference in his GPA in order to get him into a better school.

My Take:
Honestly I don't see how sitting out a year before law school will help that much. For one, you hopefully can update your potential schools of your academic progress after the fall semester of your senior year by sending an updated transcript before they make a decision on your application.

I don't know that the marginal difference in your GPA from after fall to after spring is likely to make a difference at most schools.

Your one year worth of experience is probably not going to increase your chances at any school and it may be tough to find meaningful employment for just that year.

Not to mention one year off means you graduate a year later than you could have. I know this feeling. I had a year off before law school. Man it was boring. Nearly impossible to find a meaningful job where I could just quit within a year. Plus I wouldn't be in school right now if I hadn't waited to attend law school.

Some other things to consider when applying in your situation.

How high is your LSAT?:
Something you must know: LSAT is king in terms of getting you into law school. GPA is a distant second. You characterize LSAT as "very high." Is it high relative to the other applicants at your target schools or just high relative to other LSAT takers? This makes a big difference.

That is to say, if your LSAT is very high compared to other applicants at your target law schools, it can mask a lot of problems including mediocre and even low GPA. If it's on par with many applicants, your GPA becomes more of a factor.

How low is your GPA?
With that in mind, if your GPA is really low, below merely mediocre, it could lead to rejection at some of these schools even in the face of a high LSAT.

But if I had to guess, your GPA will likely not be looked upon as unfavorably as you may think for a number of reasons.

1. Northwestern is a very reputable undergrad university.
2. Your major is a very challenging one.
3. It sounds like your grades are trending upward.

These are factors you may want to bring up in your personal statement.

Sources:
You need to gauge your chances at target schools based on your LSAT and GPA. The LSAC Official Guide to ABA-Approved Law Schools is a great place to start.

Besides the less helpful LSAT and GPA medians and percentiles on the "ABA Law School Data" sheet (example: upper right corner of second sheet), many schools provide a detailed grid of applicant data based on LSAT and GPA on the "Law School Description" sheet (example: bottom of second sheet). You can gauge your chances pretty well with this grid, as well as estimate what kind of difference a slightly increased GPA would make.

Also, take a look at lawschoolnumbers.com. Find people with similar attributes to yours and see where they applied and where they were accepted. Check your target law schools and to see if people how the people with similar attributes to yours were received at that school. Of course lawschoolnumbers is all user generated content, but I think a vast majority of user accounts on lawschoolnumbers are legit.

In the end, I just don't see that much of a risk to applying to law school now or that much of a reward for waiting.Good luck with your decision!

Anyone else want to weigh in on this in the comments? Any other readers with questions about law school can submit them here.

----
*I am a law student. That means I don't have all the answers. I may be lacking knowledge in certain areas, namely the real world practice of law. But I have done a lot of research into the law school process as a whole and I am currently living through law school. I am also surrounded by a lot of smart and experienced people with unique insight into the law school world who either work at CALI or with whom CALI has close relationships. I hope that you seek others' opinions and insights in addition to mine in order to make an informed decision.

Do you have questions about law school? Fill out, anonymously if you like, and submit the form below.

I'll answer honestly and the best I can from a current law student's point of view. If I can't answer it, I'll try to find someone who can...hey, we have connections here at CALI. Click here to see previous reader submitted posts.

Thanks!

I try to be realistic in this blog by mentioning both the good and bad aspects of law school. I'm not trying to scare anyone who is heading into law school.

But reading this article (thanks to JD2B for the link), I think it's important to inform you that law schools sometimes do ask students to leave when those students' performances are unsatisfactory grade-wise. Read more about flunking out of law school...

 (More)

This is part II of this reader submitted question (part I here):

• I am 36 yrs old and have never been to college...(see previous post)...Should I begin with a degree in Criminal Justice or is there another route I should take? I may not be able to attend full time because I work full time. I am also a single mom. Will this be a problem?

What undergraduate major should I choose?
There's an easy answer to this. It doesn't matter.

To add a litte more, there are no major requirements for getting into law school other than you must have a four year degree. Law school admissions look to admit a wide array of all majors into law school as to increase diversity.

Find a major in which you are interested and/or one that could lead you to a career field in which you could see yourself working should your law school plans become derailed. I would go as far to say do not choose something like criminal justice or pre-law unless they fit those criteria.

As an aside, I cited this study a while back. It says economics majors who attend law school tend to earn more money in the long run. But clearly, that shouldn't factor into your decision unless you were already interested in an economics degree.

Can I achieve a law school degree as a single mother/ full-time worker?
You certainly can get a law degree in that position. But undergraduate and law school will be a significant time commitment. Since you already have one full-time job it will often seem like you have two full-time jobs with the additional school work throughout this time.

Also consider the length of time it will take to finish everything. You're looking at around 10 years (maybe 5-6 for undergrad + 4 for law) or so if you go part-time the whole way through. Bottom line, it's going to be a personal choice dependent on a lot of things personal to you.

OVERALL ADVICE:
I highly suggest right now you just concentrate on getting your undergraduate degree in a major that would be useful or interesting to you even without the law school degree. Pretend as if law school is not ultimate goal at this point.

I say this because the undergraduate college you attend is of little significance in terms of getting you into a law school and your major is of even less significance. The only thing you should worry about for the first few years of undergrad is doing well grade-wise.

This way if situations change in the years to come and law school isn't an option for whatever reason, simply finishing your undergrad degree can become the ultimate goal. A goal that could open many doors career-wise for you with the possibility of a law being one of those many doors.

Start seriously considering law school and the LSAT once you're two years or so from graduating. Study very hard for the LSAT and take the test between 1 and 2 years before you graduate. But for now, just get your undergraduate degree because that is the only hard requirement for law school besides an LSAT score.

----
*I am a law student. That means I don't have all the answers. I may be lacking knowledge in certain areas, namely the real world practice of law. But I have done a lot of research into the law school process as a whole and I am currently living through law school. I am also surrounded by a lot of smart and experienced people with unique insight into the law school world who either work at CALI or with whom CALI has close relationships. I hope that you seek others' opinions and insights in addition to mine in order to make an informed decision.

This week's reader submission has several questions so I'm going to break this up into two parts...

• I am 36 yrs old and have never been to college. I am now ready to finish my dream. I want to make sure I take the correct steps. Should I begin with a community college or should I begin at a 4 yr university? ...(see next post for the rest of the question)

It's great that you are ready to take the steps and finish a dream. Here are my thoughts on your questions.

Am I too old for Law School?
I tackled the age question a couple of weeks ago here. Make sure to read Dave's comments to that post as he adds some great perspective. You should not let your age stop you from taking the steps to pursuing a law school degree.

Will attending a community college hurt my chances at a law school?
I don't think it really matters where you begin prior to law school as long as you finish with a four year degree.

From a law school admissions perspective, a community college likely won't hurt you at all. LSAT score is THE most important factor for getting into law school. GPA is a distant second. And then it seems pretty much every other factor (except something exclusionary, say past criminal record) is just a slight bump up or down in admissions' eyes.

When law school admissions judge GPA, some credence is put into the reputation/difficulty of your undergraduate school and major. But as long as your GPA is relatively good everywhere you've been before law school, you're going to be fine. Just try to make sure you have a high GPA throughout. But even a low or mediocre GPA can be masked by a high LSAT.

In all, I just can't see an admissions decision-maker bumping you down for attending a community college. Especially since your age and situation (single mother wanting to turn your life around) will be be taken as a positive.

Advantages of a Community College?
Community college sounds like a great start for you in your situation. It will be a good way for you to ease back into school as it will likely be a little less challenging and time consuming than a four year university. In addition, community college is probably going to be cheaper.

Once you finish a two year community college degree you can transfer into a four-year university. In some states, like in Illinois where I'm from, transferring from community to bacaccalaureate college is very easy. But from what I understand, elsewhere it can be complicated.

But in my experience, a lot of good universities are very willing to accept community college transfers. The community college you want to attend may even have a program that sets you on track to transfer to certain universities. So talk to someone at your prospective school.

More on transferring from a community to four year here. So I guess the decision comes down to the ease with which you would be able to transfer from the community college to a four year university. I can see a lot of advantages to starting out at a community college for someone in your situation.

----
*I am a law student. That means I don't have all the answers. I may be lacking knowledge in certain areas, namely the real world practice of law. But I have done a lot of research into the law school process as a whole and I am currently living through law school. I am also surrounded by a lot of smart and experienced people with unique insight into the law school world who either work at CALI or with whom CALI has close relationships. I hope that you seek others' opinions and insights in addition to mine in order to make an informed decision.

Another great reader submitted question today:

• I've heard the Blue Book and ALWD Citation Manual are two different citation systems. However, others have said the ALWD Citation Manual is simply a user-friendly guide to the Blue Book. The Blue Book is confusing, so if I can use the ALWD Citation Manual to comply with the Blue Book rules, that would be a great option. If you could clarify which of these views is correct, I would be very grateful. Thank you.

Differences between ALWD and Bluebook
Of course these are not the same. ALWD is for legal citations, Blue Book is for pricing your used car....

I kid.

In reality I understand the differences to be minor, but ALWD Citation Manual (say it: "ALL-WOOD") is not just a user-friendly version of The Bluebook.

Bluebook is maintained by law students at top law schools. It was the first on the legal citation format scene of the two and was the standard for many years. It contains one citation method for law reviews and another citation method for all other types of documents.

The ALWD manual, the newer of the two systems made in response to what the ALWD people viewed as deficiencies of the Bluebook system, is maintained by a group of law professors. ALWD, according to its website, "contains one system for all legal documents, making no distinction between law review articles and other types of writing."

Darby Dickerson, author of ALWD Citation Manual, points out some of the stylistic differences between the latest versions of ALWD and Bluebook in this powerpoint presentation. Also see Dickerson's comparison chart.

My Experiences with Legal Citations
Based on my experience, your school's legal writing program chooses to follow either ALWD or Bluebook. You then must conform perfectly to every last comma, space, and capitalization based on that format or face losing points on your legal writing paper.

If you participate in a law review or another journal, you will be doing a bunch of cite checking. A lot of cite checking involves making sure that the author's cites match the format. That format may or may not be in the format which you learned for legal writing.

And then this happens when you get into practice: "The realities of professional practice in many settings, particularly at a time when digital distribution of legal materials is displacing print, lead to dialects or usages in legal citation neither manual includes"--(quote from this article by Peter Martin, posted on LII...I feel like I should format this online scholarly article reference to match proper citation form considering the subject of this blog post...nah).

I don't have enough real world legal experience to know for sure, but I hear that perfect format is not nearly as important in actual practice as it is in law school. Does anyone have something to add about legal citation in practice compared to citation in law school?

Links
The above mentioned article by Peter Martin goes to great lengths in its discussion of legal citations. Greater lengths than you may be willing to read about. Still an extremely informative article.

CALI lesson based on Bluebook citations.

CALI lesson based on ALWD citations. (actually authored by the ALWD manual's author, Darby Dickerson).

Article written when ALWD first decided to publish the manual.

A good FAQ on legal citations posted at Case Western Law School's legal writing website.

----
*I am a law student. That means I don't have all the answers. I may be lacking knowledge in certain areas, namely the real world practice of law. But I have done a lot of research into the law school process as a whole and I am currently living through law school. I am also surrounded by a lot of smart and experienced people with unique insight into the law school world who either work at CALI or with whom CALI has close relationships. I hope that you seek others' opinions and insights in addition to mine in order to make an informed decision.

This is my first attempt to answer one of our reader submitted questions. I'll try to make this a weekly thing if you keep the questions coming. First off, read my little disclaimer at the bottom of this post...Ok, here's the question. And feel free to comment, suggest, or criticize what I say in the comments:

• How old is too old to become a lawyer? I am 35, and I have two years of college. I am going back to school this fall for nursing, but have wanted become a lawyer for a long time. Do you think that at my age I could have a meaningful career in law or is it too late now?

First off, congratulations on heading back to school. Whether or not you go to law school, I'm sure you will not regret finishing your degree. As far as your questions about law school, there is no doubt in my mind that you can still have a meaningful career in law.

There are many students in my classes who I'm sure are 40+. Especially after I switched to the part-time program this year. I highly recommend keeping up with this blog from a "thirty-something" mother in law school who is recounting her experience as she goes through law school. Read her advice for parents entering law school here.

What follows are some factors you might need to consider regarding going to law school at an older point in your life than most.

Getting into law school
Once you take the LSAT and score well enough, getting into law school won't be a problem at all. If anything, your age and unique life experiences are going score some points with law school admissions.

Law schools love to diversity of all kinds. And I can see why with older students as the real world knowledge that older students bring to the table makes them stars of many classroom discussions in my experience.

Money and Loans
You may have accumulated enough wealth to afford law school on your own. If so, it makes things a lot easier and some of what I say may not apply to you. But law school is EXPENSIVE. $25,000+ in tuition a year at many private schools. Add in living expenses and many students rack up well over $100,000 in student loan debt during law school.

Compared to the younger students, older students who take out loans are on average going to have less working years to pay back a potentially large debt. It also means you will have less years of experience at the end of your career to help you build a higher salary. So you may need to be more averse to loan debt than the normal student which, in turn, may limit your school choices.

Full-time or Part-time?
Generally, full-time programs take 3 years, part-time programs take 4. The ABA says a first year, full-time student cannot work over a certain amont of hours (20 I think. But i have no idea how they enforce this). And most people say treat law school like a full-time job. So if you go full-time, can you afford to not work for at least a year or preferably longer?

Going into a part-time program would allow you to work, thereby giving a source of income and reducing or eliminating loans. But I can attest to this, working full-time and going to law school takes up nearly all of your working and free time. Even more so in the first year of law school, which will be the hardest year of law school. So factor in the time you can afford to give up (especially if you have a family or other obligations) if you work in addition to part-time law school.

Choosing a law school
A lot of people say that as a law school applicant you should attend the highest ranked school to which you are accepted because the reputation of the law school has a huge affect on the opportunities you will be afforded after law school. This is not always the right advice, but probably even less right for the average older student.

Back to money again, if you go your highest ranked option (unless your LSAT numbers are phenomenal all around) that school is likely offering less scholarship money than your other options. Do you have a source of money or are you willing to take on the loans it might take to go to your highest ranked law school option?

Additionally, as discussed here, almost all law school scholarships are not guaranteed past the first year, dependent on class rank/gpa. So you cannot assume your scholarship offer will last past your first year anyway.

Ability to relocate may also play a significant role. I assume more older students are in less of a position to up and move compared to the straight out of undergrad types. Are you willing to relocate? Where to? Do you have a house, family, or other "grown-up" obligations that will not allow you to relocate?

All of these factors mean that you may have to "settle" for a less reputable law school. This, in turn, may mean you forego the opportunity to attend a higher ranked school that, under normal circumstances, would be the most likely school to open doors after graduation.

Getting a job
Your age shouldn't hold you back from getting any variety of job you could get as someone in the same position at a younger age. I don't think employers are going to hold your age against you, but I'm a little weak in knowledge of real world legal hiring practices (if anyone has an idea feel free to comment). Besides, I learned in Employment Discrimination that an employer cannot discriminate against you because of age after 40 years old (if I remember correctly).

But do you have visions of 6 figure job offers straight out of graduation? That would certainly reduce the burden if you have to take loans out. Or it could reduce the impact of three years of no income if you go full-time.

Truth is, about the only way to get a coveted 6 figure big law firm job offer straight out of law school is to land a summer associate position after your first year in school. Likelihood of landing summer associate position is highly dependent on a combination of your school's rank/ quality/ reputation and your individual class rank.

So "settling" on a school based on factors that may affect you as an older student hurts your chances at a big salaried job straight out of school. This also makes betting on landing the high paying job as an older student by taking out a lot of loans for a non-top tier even riskier than normal. It could could mean you are stuck with a large debt, less than expected salary, and less possible working years to pay the debt back.

You may just really want to work in the legal realm, whether it is at a small-medium firm or in the public sector. Maybe you hope to eventually work your way up to the higher salary. Maybe one of your experiences in life have inspired you to become a lawyer and you just want to help people. You're looking at a smaller paycheck out of school in this case, but it puts you in a better position as an older student. You can be less picky about the school you attend and put more credence into things like school location, expenses, and time you can spend on things outside of school. Performance in school is still important in landing a good job, but these types of employers are less set on class and school rankings.

Those are my thoughts and good luck with your decision.

----
*I am a law student. That means I don't have all the answers. I may be lacking knowledge in certain areas, namely the real world practice of law. But I have done a lot of research into the law school process as a whole and I am currently living through law school. I am also surrounded by a lot of smart and experienced people with unique insight into the law school world who either work at CALI or with whom CALI has close relationships. I hope that you seek others' opinions and insights in addition to mine in order to make an informed decision.